Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to Realm Jumpers. I'm Andrew and this is my co-host, jordan.

Speaker 2: 0:09

Hey everyone. We're here to dive into the worlds of fantasy and anime, bringing you epic stories and unforgettable adventures.

Speaker 1: 0:16

We'll be talking world building, unforgettable villains and everything that makes these genres legendary. So let's jump into the realm and everything that makes these genres legendary. So let's jump into the realm. Tonight, we're going to be diving into the mind of an indie storyteller, his creative process, the struggles of bringing stories to life and what it takes it to make in the world of webcomics and novels. Join us as we sit down with our very own Jordan Troche, to explore his writing journey, the future of indie publishing, and maybe even challenge him with a hot take or two um.

Speaker 1: 0:48

But let's check out what's going on in the world of realm rumors. I mean, it's pretty light-hearted, um, and honestly just kind of funny. So a police department in japan they took the detective conan um character and they're starting to use him to like put out calls for, you know, recruitment calls. So like they're using detective conan as a recruitment call for the police department, which, hey, I mean get him young, right? Yeah, no, I mean it's, it's absolutely, you know, it's funny and I thought it was cute way to you know to do that. And then it just, of course, I immediately went to oh my god, can you imagine if we put the punisher on any of our police departments recruitment stuff oh no this.

Speaker 2: 1:33

This is why the west is in america specifically. Just they're too much man no, absolutely it would turn it would turn into.

Speaker 1: 1:39

That would not be the person that you want to be yeah, right, no, that's kind of yeah, I just get inspired by Punisher, right? Do we even have a police officer or detective character that we could legitimately put on something like that? Dude, like I mean to to recruit people that's like upstanding and, you know, got a mind for justice and not completely like revenge, like anti-hero revenge, right, or yeah, or, like you know, sherlock can't do him.

Speaker 2: 2:09

He's not, he's not american. I don't even know.

Speaker 1: 2:11

I don't think we got anybody, to be honest, I, I couldn't think of a character, um, and you know, somebody's gonna fire off in comments or somewhere and they're gonna be like you forgot about so-and-so and I'm gonna look like yeah, obviously I did, because I main person that anybody in america thinks of when you think of a cop.

Speaker 2: 2:28

As far as comic book characters, I guess the green martian I mean, if you want to say like green lanterns, like a space cop, no, but I mean it didn't the green martian was a like. He took on the job of a cop like it is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, if you Okay, although let me say this Hold on Cop no, but detective, I mean Batman.

Speaker 1: 2:51

That'd be also terrible. That'd be just as bad as Punisher Breaking spines Right, yeah, no, that's yeah, that's a bad call.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:05

Because, yeah, because you can't, yeah, you really can't be crippling people. Yeah, yeah, we're done now. That's terrible. It's terrible. Please do not be like batman if you are thinking of joining the police force that is a terrible idea.

Speaker 2: 3:12

Don't do it, although it would be a cool story, but please don't do it right.

Speaker 1: 3:15

Yeah, no, that'd be bad.

Speaker 2: 3:16

That's just all around that terrible well, maybe we should create a character, I guess.

Speaker 1: 3:24

I mean we could try. Right, I can't draw for crap.

Speaker 2: 3:29

So, you know, I could write a character, maybe, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 3:32

Should we dive into the interview portion this main topic?

Speaker 2: 3:36

Yeah, I mean let's, let's do it. Man, I'm nervous, but let's go, let's go. You guys be nervous for All right, let's dive into this thing, man, it shouldn't be too bad.

Speaker 1: 3:44

So the first question you know we talked a little bit about how you got started on your writing journey in our origin stories episode, episode zero, episode zero and you know you mentioned that it was a dare from your sister to create something better. Can you expand on that more? You know, were there any specific anime books or, you know, comics that shaped your approach to storytelling? Absolutely so.

Speaker 2: 4:09

I wouldn't even say better, just non filler.

Speaker 1: 4:15

Can you read it?

Speaker 2: 4:16

It's automatically better. Um, but yeah, I mean, in my original series, which is now called the fallen, which you can can read, there's 50 chapters out on voicemail via ycemecom you can find it. Um, but anyway it's, it's, it's breakneck speed storytelling. Honestly, I probably would slow it down a little bit more when I do season two, but I was just like, so gung-ho about we're not doing filler, we're moving and grooving, um, but as far as, like, what inspired it? Yeah, I mean, you know, know, obviously, bleach with the powers, with the swords, you know the that level of stuff, although I'd say really big medieval fantasy, I mean that's really the biggest thing. That really started that story for me.

Speaker 2: 4:55

And you know I wanted to create a really scary medieval war world. That was quote pre flood from the Bible. So I kind of wanted to go a little crazy with it. Uh, and you know who knows what it was really like back then, really. So let's just have some fun type stuff. And I wanted to have creatures and monsters and otherworldly things and someone hunting them. You know that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 5:16

I wish I could say the Witcher inspired it. You know, I know your background back there. You could see him with the monster hunting angle, because ezekiel does do that a lot in there. But I didn't really know witcher that much back then. So it was just kind of like you know just, you know, monster hunting is a very normal thing that we think, so I wanted to incorporate it a little bit. Um, and then you know my favorite berserk. I mean, I wanted it to be a dark world with really bad stuff, you know as well. So I would say those are the real series and just shonen and I love battle. You know action, fighting, manga and stuff. So I wanted to create one of my in that world gotcha.

Speaker 1: 5:49

So the fallen was before deck of fates. Yeah, yep, so okay, I thought it was the reverse, I thought it was well in in publishing like in the world.

Speaker 2: 6:00

Yes, deck of fates would technically have been first, but the fallen was the retelling of my original nephilim story that I originally started writing for. So in my mind that was always really the first um. That was really the first thing I ever wrote as a script, you know, and learning how to script, write and learning how to panel it and you know all that kind of fun stuff. Yeah, in my mind it's always first um, it did come out later, uh, when it was finally called the fallen. But there's, you know, I have like three different versions of nephilim. In my mind it's always first. It did come out later when it was finally called the Fallen. But I have like three different versions of Nephilim in my computer from back in the day.

Speaker 2: 6:30

A manga, a comic. Now it's finally the Fallen and it's a webtoon and all that, but it's the number one in my mind, just because it's the first thing I ever wrote. That was what the dare was about, really.

Speaker 1: 6:40

Yeah, I gotcha. So the Fall fallen for me. I remember the first time I looked at it. Um, well, let me backstep there for a second. You know, growing up as a teenager, the there was a lot of books that were just starting to come out, like young adult fantasy stuff that was geared towards, yeah, you know, nephilim and fallen angel stories. Um, the unfortunate side of that was most of them ended up being like on the tween side with the love triangle stuff, which was, of course, not as much fun, um, you know, but I I definitely could feel the vibe and I liked it and I appreciate, because you know who doesn't love a good story, I don't know, I think it was.

Speaker 2: 7:13

It's good stories. Yeah, I appreciate that man. Thank you, it's just one of those ones I wanted to mix like bible, ancient world, old world, themes, I guess you know kind of stuff in my own version of what pre-flood could be, or whatever, in a world of you know half angel monsters.

Speaker 1: 7:29

Did you do a lot of research for that? Like what, or what kind of what was your research? Looking at that? Sorry, are you there? My system is crashing for a second. What'd you say? No, I was saying, like what kind of research were you on? Did you just go looking for stories in the Bible or did you just what was your research? What did your research look like? For yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:50

So I mean, I grew up Roman Catholic so I had a lot of already you know Bible stories that I've read and had to go to Sunday school and all that fun stuff for. But in that age of when I started writing it in my early 20s, I was really diving into like different myths from you know old world stuff, from like you know ancient history or ancient possible history, I guess. And when I kind of stumbled onto the Dead Sea Scrolls is it really, you know, I read them and I read Revelations and stuff back when I was younger. But when I read Dead Sea Scrolls it reads like a action movie in a way. It's crazy If you've never read it. It's really cool.

Speaker 2: 8:30

And that's really where that idea of that there was. These, you know, that Earth was supposed to be prepared by these watcher angels for mankind and they did, and then humanity started and then they were watching and kind of like lusting over, like well, we want free will too, or hey, it's really. They kind of lusted over the human women, which is funny enough. So they started, you know, sleeping with them, and then they would have offspring and they would be, you know, like David and Goliath, like a Cyclops or you know whatever, like there's all these different and a Dead Sea Scrolls. It goes in more detail of that.

Speaker 2: 9:07

But even in the original Bible there's one throwaway line about the and it always stuck with me is let's see, if I can remember correctly, in the days of old there was what did it say? I'm going to mess it up, I can't remember it a hundred percent, but it's something pretty much that the sons of God laid with the daughters of man and created myths or men of great renown, of legend. And I always stuck in my mind of like what does that actually mean? Are we talking like Hercules? Like what do we mean really, the beginning of of that research? Of like what could old world pre-flood look like if there really was beings that were?

Speaker 2: 9:47

you know, fantasy type and ruling over mankind and all this craziness, and how would that, how could you tell a story with that theme, you know? So it was really like dead sea scrolls, like the big one, and then, just you know, fantasy genre stuff, you know right on.

Speaker 1: 10:01

So at this point you've written both web comics and novels.

Speaker 2: 10:06

What are the biggest differences in how you approach storytelling in the two than novel writing, obviously, and what you have to do for script writing is you really you want to give as much direction as possible to the artist and you really want to explain the scenery, what the characters are doing, whatever's going on, and you know, doing that it's way more kind of technical than a novel, obviously, and it gets a little, you know it's a little dry. But the more explanation that you give, the more the artist can really draw what you want. You know, hopefully within the first or second time, because if you have to keep doing revisions all the time, you know it, it takes longer and longer.

Speaker 1: 10:56

So I've always imagined that as something like you're writing like two or three paragraphs of what the frame should look like, for like one line of actual text of what's going on.

Speaker 2: 11:06

So you don't want to over explain.

Speaker 2: 11:08

So that's.

Speaker 2: 11:08

The thing is, there's like a and and when you start working with like an artist or an art team, you will like, you'll start to naturally like see what they saw from your script and how they did it, and you'll start to know like I can do less explanation and or more in this specific scene, the one that you really want to like, and not every panel in your script is going to have like a paragraph of stuff, but like the action scene stuff, you kind of do need to be very specific because with movement going on in the panels, you want to make sure that it's being portrayed correctly and that they draw it the right way, because if they don't, you know you're going to have to revise it and then revise, and that that can become a cycle of and it's never going to probably be exactly what you think in your mind.

Speaker 2: 11:51

But as someone who's written a lot of scripts and seen artists draw what I was thinking in my mind, it's really weird because they're like melding to what I'm doing and there's been plenty of times where I'm like that's exactly what I was. So it's it's kind of weird.

Speaker 1: 12:03

It's like a weird cohesive thing so we talked a little bit about that in the uh, the novels versus manga episode and I mentioned that. You know that part of the part of the artist or the author's job is to, you know, describe a situation well enough so that the reader can imagine it, and then that basically tells the story on there. But with with web comics and you know, manga, you're really telling the entire story because you don't leave anything up to the imagination, like you're putting it all there in the frame so that way the reader doesn't have to imagine it. So, yeah, that, um, that whole process just looks a seems a little bit wild to me, and I'm not joking like I really did think it was something. Man, you gotta provide like three or four paragraphs of what's going on in a frame. Dude, just I'm gonna show you script.

Speaker 2: 12:49

Let's fight a face and you'll be like, wow, that's not that much in there. It's really crazy. Like they really start to sync up with you in a way and and you really don't have to do as much as you really think um, but in certain like, let's say, you want them to do like a pose, like, let's say, they have a sword and they're powering it up or, in a certain way, holding it a certain way. You know, I'll go and look for, you know, a manga panel or something that shows that stance of what you're trying to do, and they'll, they can riff it off of that to make their own version of your character. So that's part of it, um, which helps. But you, you get into this weird, um, you know, you get into this weird sharing space where they just start to kind of do it the way you're thinking, at least. Maybe it's just.

Speaker 2: 13:29

I've always been told that my writing is very descriptive and the artists never have a problem with it, so maybe it's just I'm very visual in how I write it and they seem to just latch on. Could be it. But yeah, novel though, man, it's actually. It's going to sound crazy, but I'm glad that I wrote, figured out script writing before novel writing, because I think it helped me to be super concise when I'm explaining in a novel a scene or an action piece or whatever. It seemed to really let me harness in on what I'm trying to say quickly and not overdo over, explain it which I?

Speaker 2: 14:04

You know some books. You read a book. You're like we get it, you know what I mean. Like come on, you know, yeah, it's cold out and there's, you know whatever. Like you don't need like a million words to explain all that. You need to be concise with it. So I think, in a weird way, um, writing script first prepared me way more for writing and I think if I would write a novel first what you're saying is true I would over every doamined Do you have a favorite way to tell stories?

Speaker 1: 14:29

What would be your preferred method to tell stories?

Speaker 2: 14:32

Would it be web?

Speaker 1: 14:33

comics or full-blown novels.

Speaker 2: 14:35

Yeah, novels are very difficult, although they're very rewarding to do them, but they're very hard to do. Script writing is quicker. I could write a whole episode script in, you know, 30 minutes to an hour, if I'm really getting what is more? No man, that's a hard question. I think I like novels better because it's just more rewarding to write a novel.

Speaker 1: 14:58

I mean you wrote right.

Speaker 2: 14:59

You get to flex your creative process well, 50 000, 60, 70 000 words, like it's a lot um yeah but the time that it takes is is one of the things that I and it wouldn't take as long.

Speaker 2: 15:13

If I did it full time, you know, I wouldn't, it wouldn't take so long. So maybe that's part of for sure that. Yeah, maybe that's why, like I dread I don't dread it, but I kind of dread it. Sometimes I'm like this could take two years, you know, because that's the only you know what I mean, you know.

Speaker 1: 15:25

Hey, that's why I dread it, because I'm like this could take two years, you know, because that's the only you know what I mean. You know, hey, that's why I dread it, because I'm like you know what I've written so far. I'm like this is easily going to be more than a hundred thousand words and it's scary, dude, cause I'm like I'm never going to have time to finish this.

Speaker 2: 15:40

Well, that's you know. Even even my wife she's like you know, hey, this person blew up on the sixth book, so you know. So, like I get that, but also like I don't want to wait 10 more years, you know, I don't know. So we're going to see, man, I'm just going to keep doing it and one day it'll pop off, hopefully, or if it doesn't, whatever For sure. Man, yeah, but I'm still going to write webcomics, like I'm still going to write webcomics, like you know, hopefully this year I have two that are going to go in production, hopefully, and I'm still going to do them and it's very rewarding. So I don't know, I think I like writing novels more for the challenge, but the immediate reward from webcomics I like more, because you get it comes out fine and you're seeing artwork from your words, Like it's kind of cool.

Speaker 1: 16:22

You know what I mean Right, right, no, absolutely, um. So I'm gonna. I'm kind of jumping around here with some of the questions, but there are. Since we're already on the sort of from the topic, there are two different main writing styles. You've got your plotters and you've got your pantsers I don't like that word because you fly by the seat of your pants probably winger.

Speaker 2: 16:43

Ain't a pantser man winger pantser, the.

Speaker 1: 16:47

I think the official term is actually pantser. That's funny. I've never heard that, so we talked about that previously. That you know you like to wing it, but how much planning do you actually? Do you know how the each of your stories will end?

Speaker 2: 17:00

yeah. So for me I mean either way, writing a novel or writing a script, I know the ending. Like really early, like quickly, like I'm not going to start writing the, the first page, until I know what the ending is. Now, how to get to that ending and what story beats do I want to hit? I'm going to have an idea of where, where I want certain set pieces to go in it, or you know events or whatever. Um, so I do. Yeah, I mean it's outlined specifically to get to that end point. But for me, when I'm writing, especially a novel, I think a novel is more like like the fallen. The end isn't done on the fallen at all, like I know where I wanted to go in that first 50 episodes and we did, and the second batch, I you know the ending is. I have an idea of an ending but I think I'm going to change it as I go along. But that's different because it's like a it's an episode thing. You know, it's like every week type stuff yeah, it's episodic, it's ongoing.

Speaker 1: 17:54

You can change. It's ongoing.

Speaker 2: 17:55

Yeah yeah, and and for that, like for that kind of stuff, I think the ending I have an idea, but it's not that, it's not concrete for me of what I'm going to do yet. You, you know I have a certain set piece. I want to happen, but I don't know if it'll be the actual end or right before. But for novels, yeah, like the end of the novel or even that story, I know where that's going to go. But the way to get there is the winging or pantsing part, because sometimes there's certain stories that seem to like write themselves in different ways, where, like I was, like I'm going to hit, like I'll use endless as a good example of the vampire one, because I want to hit certain time periods and I'm going to hit certain time periods in that story, and I decided what time periods I wanted to play around in for the for those parts.

Speaker 2: 18:41

But the exact storyline in that specific time period of what are we going to do while we're in this time period, it wasn't fleshed out all the way, it was more like let's just write in ancient Egypt and see where it goes. Let's write in, you know, japan, ancient Japan, and see where that goes. And then you know Victoria and London, like I wanted to see where it goes, but I knew I was going to hit those certain. And then you know, as the story goes on, and know that I want to have a certain event or a character do something in that time period, but like what are the rest of the day of that character? You know, whatever, however long they're in that? No, I'll wing it and let it just write itself and kind of evolve, but I, I mean, I have an outline, but it it's definitely not to the point where it's like chapter one through eight is going to be this journey of this and then chapter nine did not like that so did you know that?

Speaker 1: 19:31

um, we, in another episode, one of our hot takes, you know we were talking about favorite books and one of your one of your favorite books was, uh, stephen king did you know that, uh did you know that stephen King is also a pantser? Ew, he's a pantser, he's a hundred percent pantser.

Speaker 2: 19:50

He starts with a point.

Speaker 1: 19:53

He starts with a point you know like cause you have to have an idea, right. Yeah, sure, so he starts with his idea and he says frequently his books do not end up where he thought it was going to end up because he, he thinks and I don't remember exactly what he said, but he's he was basically alluding to for him the creative process doesn't feel creative anymore. He writes an out interesting.

Speaker 2: 20:15

It's almost like he's betraying what he feels like what.

Speaker 1: 20:18

That's interesting, dude, yeah, so for him I get that yeah, he says when, basically when he writes an outline, he feels like you know, he's destroying the creative process for himself.

Speaker 2: 20:29

So you know, when you say that and when I hear that that phrase, to me it sounds kind of like what I've been saying is you're writing it, but it's it's not all the way coming from you. It's almost like you're tapping into some antenna, like your brain becomes an antenna for the story and you're just, you know, letting it flow and you're putting your little flavors on stuff. But some of it and it, I'm telling you, when you start writing your novel, like really going into it, you're gonna have certain plans. That's fine, but like you'll notice that the story seems to take some curves that you never planned for. But like and it's.

Speaker 2: 21:03

It's very weird because you're writing it, so you're piloting the ship, right. But then it's like, well, how did we get over here? Because I wasn't even going that way oh and if you let it happen, man, it's, it's magical, it's really cool.

Speaker 1: 21:18

No, I'll see. Here's the thing though. I am a plotter, you know I I plot things out very, very dedicated, like that's the way I do everything. But to your point, when I started writing what I'm you know, my novel, what I'm writing I just intended to write a little dungeon diving story. That turned into this other thing and, yeah, I don't know what it is Like. You've read my prologue and I'm like that's not where I was planning on going with that at all.

Speaker 1: 21:52

It's weird, it just takes on a life of its own. The difference is like I shift my plot and I started plotting for the new, for the new story that came alive during the old winter, right during the old story. So it's not that I don't, you know, it's not that I don't fly by the seat of my pants at all. It's just that once I figure out by the seat of my pants at all, it's just that once I figure out that that's what I'm doing, I will kind of course correct a little bit and outline for that. And if things need to change again, you know, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 22:15

But I'm still gonna have a plan. Yeah, it's super, it's just it's. I like that it's called pants. That's funny, that's awesome, cause it's literally that I mean. It's literally that, I mean it's. You are doing that. You know I'll have a concept or an idea and I'm like I'm gonna write about this and then it kind of fills in as you start really thinking about it. You're driving to work and you're, like, you know, thinking about it, and then you gotta write it. Yeah, it's just like it's always there, man, it's like always growing it's weird, it's like a seed.

Speaker 1: 22:42

The problem is when you have an idea, uh, when you're out grocery shopping or something and you have to like stop everything you're doing, so you like text a note to yourself and be like absolutely remember to do this thing. It's that's the worst. I mean it's the best, but it's also the worst, because it's like if you happen to if you happen to forget one of those tiny little ideas that you're like, I'm gonna remember this you're definitely.

Speaker 2: 23:03

Oh, yeah, I have. I have my notes on my phone. It's like ridiculous yeah, what's in there. Yeah, you wake up middle of the night and be like, oh wait, and you write something there. Yeah, I've done that, I've done that.

Speaker 1: 23:13

So one of the toughest parts of storytelling is keeping you know, keeping you aged. How do you ensure that your you know, your characters and your plot stay compelling?

Speaker 2: 23:23

so you know it's funny. It's not even something that and you know you've read some of my stuff. Yeah, I know you read some of it. I mix genres together to the point where, like they probably shouldn't work, but somehow they do work in a weird way, and you know what I mean by that I've been slightly confused a few times until I get to a point and I'm like, is he doing what I think he's doing?

Speaker 1: 23:41

and then I'm like, oh, he's doing it. This is, this is gonna be good yeah, it's really weird.

Speaker 2: 23:46

Um, so I don't really like set out to make it compelling. I know that the story is compelling already. I mean, and I've thought about it for like months and months. You know different little pieces of the story. So you know I what I do is, you know, I want to be as visual as possible when writing, especially especially like action scenes and stuff. So the compelling part is like I really focus in on like all right, I need the reader, when they're reading this, to really see how this is playing out, what it looks like in their mind. So I make sure to try to like make it as visual as I can when it comes to that stuff, like fighting scenes and stuff. But yeah, just being like compelling in the storyline itself. The storyline is compelling.

Speaker 2: 24:26

There's no one that's going to write it like I'm going to write it. I already know that. So as I'm writing it, you know, I know that if I've drawn you in enough that you're still reading the book, you're going to finish the book Like you want to know where this. You know something's going on here. You're like you want to see this like what is this? And just trying to keep it dynamic. Man's going to happen, you know. Trying to make it fun, you know.

Speaker 1: 24:54

No for sure. And yeah, I don't know. For me, I think that's the. That would be the biggest stress point for me is, you know, like I think everybody thinks their idea is compelling, you know, but it's. And then you start writing and you're like, is it people actually? But are people actually going to read this? And you know that's that's a huge challenge, going to read this, and you know that's that's a huge challenge, but is is that the biggest challenge you've faced as a writer? Or let me rephrase that, what is the biggest challenge you faced as a writer? Would it be, you know, is it just a self-doubt straight up, or is it like writer's block? Or you know what are your biggest challenges?

Speaker 2: 25:23

yeah, I don't have writer's block. I've never had writer's block and even if it's just a little bit, I'll just it. It, I just need to. Not, I'm not into it right now to do it tomorrow Like it's not. I've never had, like not been able to like tune into it. I mean I got to have certain music and stuff, like there's a ritual. I didn't have like a certain playlist and then I'm in.

Speaker 2: 25:40

But as far as biggest challenges and you know it's it's going to sound weird, I think, but the process itself of writing and creating is not it's challenging because it's, you know, whatever, but it's fun, it's very fun for me. So I don't even look at that as a challenge. You know, now that I've written two books, I know I can write a novel. Now I just got to get better at it as I go and I need to find the right, you know, story to. You know, hopefully catch fire at some point. But the biggest yeah, right, the biggest challenge is and I think I'm finally getting over it and it's been a long time of getting over it is you put so much effort and work into something in the process of writing and editing your stuff and whatever you're finally like all right, I'm releasing that.

Speaker 2: 26:24

And then, depending on what path you take, if you're and try to do traditional, that's got a whole bunch of stuff built into that. That's very hard to deal with. And if you go self-publishing which you know it's valid, you know that itself gets. There's a lot of challenges in that. And when you're writing you're not thinking of that part of this process, because you're writing your story and you're telling your story.

Speaker 2: 26:48

And then you know a hundred thousand words, whatever 60,000, we finished your story, you know, and you're like, okay, you reread it and you edit it enough, and you're like, all right, that next part is so removed from the first part that it's very jarring because it's a whole different situation. Because now it's, if you're going to self-publish it, a, how do you do that, pricing it, how do you market it? Then you finally do all that. You're doing videos and not really going anywhere. You know that it's a whole bunch of disappointment on all that. And then the sales you know there's like a lot of that other stuff that's not really involved in the first part you've got to go from.

Speaker 2: 27:26

You've got to go from creative like you, you know the creator aspect to then you've got to become a salesman, a salesman, a, no, a, a expert of your story, which you should be because you wrote it, but still, um, how do you talk about it? Uh, you know, do you all these things, all these different pieces? And then, if you go to the traditional route and you're submitting it to agents to try to get a book deal, you're dealing with rejections. You're dealing with being straight up ignored. You're dealing with I sent this three weeks ago, three months ago, six months ago, what the heck? Then you finally get an email and you open.

Speaker 2: 28:04

It's like the college. You know you're getting rejected from college thing every single time. So like you start to get a little resentful, but you're like it's part of the process, you know, you're just like going through the process. So to me, the hardest part of any of the writing thing is really that part, because you know, go to a bookstore, go to walmart, look at the book section, and you look at books. You're like that got published. You know, really, you know, and it's not like.

Speaker 2: 28:31

But I'm not saying it's like, I'm not trying to dog the books like good for them, but also like mine. I know mine's better than that, I know. But you're not being seen. And you know the self-publishing thing. There's more power in it, there's more freedom in it, there's more control for you in it because it's your stuff. But you're also now battling a ocean of self-published books on top of regular published books and there's a lot of all of that.

Speaker 2: 28:57

I think all of that stuff is the hardest stuff. The actual writing. It is fun and it's not. I don't want to say easy, but compared to that stuff it's easy. And I think the biggest challenge for me is you don't want to say easy, but compared to that stuff it's easy.

Speaker 2: 29:08

You know, and I think the biggest challenge for me is like you don't write to make a book sell a million copies, like that's. I mean you shouldn't be writing for that reason, obviously, and I wouldn't say that I'm writing for that reason. But you are writing to like if you do release it, you want to see success in it. You know how much effort and time you took to make that and there's nothing harder than like you know it comes out, and not that it falls on deaf ears, but like kind of, did you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 29:34

That's the hardest part and that part I was not ready for when I started writing novels. Like I knew obviously that's not going to just be like first book boom. But it's weird to go through it because I wasn't prepared for that. I didn't I don't know I w, I didn't really put much thought into that part. I was like, oh, it'll be fine, I'll just release it and it will be fine. Eventually it's not a big deal, but it took me a long time to get to that spot in my brain where I'm like keep writing number one and if it even Like, but it's a little bit, you know, you're kind of like, here you go Good old shonen characters, man, because you just go and you just keep going. You know you're failing and you're going and you just got to keep doing it.

Speaker 1: 30:14

It's not easy. So I feel like Brandon Sanderson actually has the maybe not the best opinion on this, but he's got some very good points about this topic and this topic specifically. You know Brandon said in one of his because he published you know his series of courses that he was doing for creative writing and one of them you know he specifically said you know, you become a writer because you have to tell your stories, because you have to get your stories out. You know that's, that's why you write, because you have to get your stories out. You know, if you, if you're becoming a writer to sell a million books and get a book deal, you're going to fall and you're going to stop writing because that's not why you're.

Speaker 1: 30:57

You know that that's not a good reason. That's not a good enough reason to keep with it. You know the reason has to be because you need to get your stories out. It's got to be out there. You got to get it out of you. Yeah Right, you just you have to tell a story like you want this story to be out there, and it's not. You know, of course, every I think everybody would be lying if they said that they didn't want to sell a million copies, because obviously right, you know, that would be fantastic.

Speaker 2: 31:23

What other?

Speaker 1: 31:23

way to prove you know that your story was a success by selling a million copies. You know there's no, there's no greater standard of like I made it, I made it, yep, but I think you have to define and it sounds like you've already done this, but I think you have to define what success, what success is going to look ahead of time, right, um, and it sounds like you know you've gotten, you, sounds like you've got that nailed. You, you know success is getting the book published, whether it's indie or traditional, and telling a story. And you know, yeah, do you want a million readers? Of course, of course you do. But you know you've designed, defined success separately from have I made it like have I made it is not your own, and I will tell you this.

Speaker 2: 32:08

that's recent for me. That's not like I've been like that for a long. That's literally recent, as in like this year, because I was getting to a point where I was getting angry and resentful about like I've spent all this and I think it's just because it's very important for me to that. This is a success in whatever word that means. But then you have to define that word for you and you're absolutely right. You know, is it successful because you got a book deal or is it successful because you actually wrote a freaking book that people who did read are like actually, yes, it's really good.

Speaker 2: 32:38

What is successful and you know, that's if I could impart any kind of wisdom, and I hope anyone listening to that wants to write. A, do it, Stop making excuses and do it. And B define that before you finish, Because if you don't, you're leaving it up to other factors to decide what that means for you and those factors are not realistic. I mean, you don't know how many books somebody wrote until they made it. You have to actually look it up and really like, figure that out. They made it. You have to actually look it up and really like, figure that out and. But it's one of those things and the comfort I take in it is, even if the first four books don't hit and number five does the other four are then going to get read more because they want to see what else you wrote yeah, absolutely just keep going.

Speaker 2: 33:21

But I was not prepared for that.

Speaker 2: 33:24

Um, if I'm being honest about I wasn't prepared for that when I started writing these novels, because you know everyone wants to think you're special, okay, cool, but you know it's like you spent a long time doing it, man, and you want to be rewarded or accolade. You want to be recognized, I guess would be the word for the time that you spend into and when you're not, you're like, you know you start getting annoyed. So annoyed, so like please, whatever it is for you specifically as a writer, decide that before and allow what happens happens and don't let it taint your love of writing. You know that's not good. You know what I mean no, I, I agree.

Speaker 1: 34:02

Um, so you know, you've you've worked with a lot of indie comics. You know comic comic writer, you know the whole shebang kind of done a lot in the biz. So the indie comic scene has changed a lot over the years, so especially, you know, with like web comics and manhwa becoming more popular. What is your current take on the state of the industry?

Speaker 2: 34:26

So actually it's changed a lot because you're seeing these webcomics, webtoons, monroes being animated, which is not a thing If you cut a little at three, four, five years ago that wasn't happening that much. So I love seeing it because it's growing more and more and more. And, like you were saying about the beginning, after the end that creator is not. You said he's American.

Speaker 1: 34:47

Yeah, he's korean american yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:49

So that would never have happened before. You know, when we were growing up, that wouldn't be a thing you know. So the global audience is shifted to the point where you're going to start seeing more opportunity for more people, and I think that's amazing because, know, anime is a global thing at this point, you know it's been, and the more people that watch it, the better, and it just it leaves the door open for more creators of different you know, places that they get their stories made.

Speaker 2: 35:20

I mean, we all want to animate made one day it would be awesome.

Speaker 1: 35:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 35:24

And you see these happening. You know it's slowly here and there and that's a big deal, man, because the more successful those are, the more they're going to make more of them. So I think it's just you're going to start seeing way more web to vertical scrolling stories be adapted, and I think it's going to be, really fun.

Speaker 1: 35:42

We're going to get some really cool as long as the studios are good, dude, that's what I'm hoping, because there are a lot of stories that I want to see get animated. Uh, and you know, just personal preference.

Speaker 2: 35:57

I would love to see deck of fates, get animated dude. I just I want to cry. I would be so proud of crying. That would be dream that my dream is to have something. I have two dreams book, public book, big book, success novel and something animated that is that I mean, that would just be amazing, stunning, yeah, absolutely all right, so you've got a pretty decent fan base around your works.

Speaker 1: 36:18

How do you engage with yours and what is your favorite part about connecting with your fans?

Speaker 2: 36:24

sure. So really it's, um, my favorite is when I have an episode of a weekly series coming out and every week a new episode drops and I get to see the comments and people trying to like, you know, guess what's happening or put two and two together, whatever, and I like engaging a little bit, not spoiling, but like in the in the comments, that that's my favorite thing.

Speaker 1: 36:47

Oh yeah, I got to ask you have you ever had a fan leave a comment in, you know, in the comments, and you're like, oh my God, that's hot, I need to steal that idea.

Speaker 2: 37:00

Um no, I've never had someone leave something that I would want to do, cause I don't want here's what. Here's the thing. You have to be careful with that because if you're writing it to your audience and not what you really want to do, that's a slippery slope, although I have seen people make comments and I'm like that's actually, that's a cool take, but that's not where I'm going and you don't want them to guess you're going to. You know you don't want to like turn your story and then do that and then someone's like I knew it. But then you know, you know what you did. Yeah, it's like you want to make them be more shocked than be like I knew it, type stuff, uh. But I have seen definitely some cool takes on things and I kind of like, when they're just wildly off of they like think I'm gonna do something completely different and I'm like, oh, they are not paying attention or they don't know this, because it makes it more fun, because now they bro, do you even read?

Speaker 2: 37:49

it's like what are you talking about? But then it, you know, it means that my story is unique enough that they're not guessing where it's going. You know, that's kind of like that's I like doing that man. That's my favorite way of interacting, you know, but I need a weekly series to do that. So hopefully my other two will come back this year you'll get it yeah, maybe we'll see hopefully it's the year for the comeback.

Speaker 1: 38:09

That's what I've been told well, let's go, let's move right, let's do it so for aspiring writers, um, as we're as we're kind of winding down here on the interview for aspiring writers and webcomic creators, what is the best piece of advice you wish you had?

Speaker 2: 38:26

you were starting out um my best piece of advice you wish you had when you were starting out. My best piece of advice would be stop second guessing. You got an idea for a story and no one has that idea the way that you have it, and even if it's similar or it's another hero reborn in another world thing, you can still make an original version of that that no one else has thought of. So you know, there's only a certain amount of stories that we can tell anyway. But make them yours original, make them unique and just go for it. That's really my only advice, because you know we, the whole shonen genre is the same story over and over again. Just, you know told a different, you know lenses, but they're all different. I mean, you know black clover and fairy tale very similar, but they're also wildly different stories. You know like they're just different, different types of characters. So just tell your story the way that you, you know, envision it, and who cares if it shares similarities with something else?

Speaker 1: 39:20

everything shares similarities yeah, there's no new stories told under the sun, that you just have to get creative with the way you tell that story.

Speaker 2: 39:30

Yeah, or blend genres that shouldn't be blended together, but you know, yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:33

Yeah, absolutely. I don't know anybody that does that.

Speaker 2: 39:38

No one at all. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 39:40

No one.

Speaker 2: 39:40

I mean who writes the end of the world? Ai robot story about a war, and then there's mythological thing. I mean story about a war, and then there's mythological thing. I mean come on, man doesn't make any sense. Why would?

Speaker 1: 39:49

you do that. It doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense all right. Well, that does about wrap us up again. We've been talking for quite a few minutes. Um, no, it's fine, it was a good interview and, uh, thank you for agreeing to do it, which I know that sounds weird because you're on the show with me but, but, we could have covered anything, but I was like no dude and.

Speaker 1: 40:12

I just want to say this was my idea, a hundred percent. I was like bro, we got to talk about your stories Like I didn't push it I promise we have to talk about Jordan's stories.

Speaker 2: 40:22

Well, I appreciate you giving me a chance.

Speaker 1: 40:33

And I mean, hey, anyone listens to it. Help, maybe they get some advice from it. Go for it, you know, hopefully it'll help in some way. Just write, you know, keep writing, all right? Well, thank you, jumpers and everybody. Have a great night. We'll talk to you next week. See you, peace. Thanks for jumping into the realm with us today. Be sure to follow realm jumpers wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to share your thoughts, theories and favorite and favorite moments with us.

Speaker 2: 40:47

Stay epic and keep exploring the worlds you love. Leave us a review on your podcast platform and if you're stuck on what to say, let us know what your favorite anime is. See you in the next realm, so so.